In a culture fascinated by age dynamics in relationships, the question “What Age Makes a Cougar? Defining the Line” often arises. Is it merely a number, or is there more at play in defining this intriguing social label? As we navigate through perceptions and realities surrounding age-gap relationships, it’s essential to clarify the term and its implications. Join us as we explore the nuances that help set the parameters for what it truly means to be a cougar, providing a clear understanding for those keen to unravel this modern phenomenon.
What Defines a Cougar Age
When we think of a “cougar,” many of us might conjure up images of glamorous women in their prime, perhaps sipping cocktails in a lively bar. However, the essence of what defines a cougar is more than just age—it encompasses a blend of confidence, assertiveness, and experience. Typically, the term cougar refers to women aged 40 and above who seek relationships with significantly younger men. But let’s break down this notion more than just a mere age specification, shall we?
Age and Attitude
First off, it’s essential to recognize that age is only one part of the equation. While the typical age range for a cougar is often cited as 40-55, some experts argue that it’s really about mindset. A 35-year-old who oozes confidence and knows what she wants can very well embody the characteristics we associate with a cougar. Conversely, a 55-year-old who feels stuck in the past might not fit the mold. So, at the end of the day, it’s a balance of who is rocking the self-assured style and who is still cruising along in the comfort zone.
Another key element to consider is the societal influence on relationships between older women and younger men. Historically, we’ve seen a pattern where older men date younger women—think your classic May-December romances. However, as cultural norms evolve, the cougar phenomenon has emerged more prominently. If we think of relationship dynamics like a dance—sometimes, the older partner leads, and sometimes the younger partner takes charge. Embracing this dance is what really defines a cougar’s age.
Cultural Context and Stereotypes
To complicate matters, the term cougar has amassed various cultural connotations, often leaning on stereotypes. Some may view cougars as predatory or desperate, while others celebrate them as pioneers of a newfound freedom. In their defense, these women are often just living their best lives, breaking away from the traditional narrative that suggests they should be settling down or retreating into a quieter lifestyle.
| Age Group | Expectations | Reality |
|—————|————————————–|—————————————–|
| 30-39 | Often still defined by youthful norms| Growing sense of personal identity |
| 40-49 | Expected to seek stability | Exploring new relationships |
| 50+ | Viewed as out of the dating game | A thriving dating scene emerges |
In fact, the cougar trend has been supported by various social movements that advocate for women’s empowerment and sexual liberation. It’s like casting off the shackles of outdated standards and embracing a practice akin to discovering new hiking trails at your favorite national park—refreshing, invigorating, and a little unpredictable! So whether you’re sipping sangria at a sun-soaked terrace or hitting the town for a night out, remember that the essence of being a cougar goes beyond just age; it’s about living life on your terms and redefining boundaries.
Understanding the Cougar Archetype
When diving into the world of cougars, it’s essential to first understand what this archetype represents. Far from just a catchy term, the cougar embodies a complex mix of characteristics that goes beyond merely dating younger partners. Instead, it’s about confidence, independence, and a zest for life that can inspire anyone, regardless of age. Imagine the classic image of a woman exuding charisma at a bar—she’s not just attracting attention; she’s commanding it. But what truly makes someone a “cougar”? Is it an age metric, a mindset, or perhaps a little bit of both?
What Defines a Cougar?
The defining traits of a cougar can sometimes feel as elusive as a cat’s purr. Traditionally, the term is often linked to women in their 40s and beyond who seek relationships with younger men. However, the essence of this archetype isn’t just about age—it’s about attitude. Here are some key characteristics that define the cougar:
- Self-confidence: A cougar walks into a room like she owns it, radiating a level of self-assurance that some find utterly magnetic.
- Financial Independence: Many cougars are established in their careers. They are often women who know what they want and aren’t afraid to go after it.
- Adventure-seeking: Cougars tend to be open-minded and eager to try new experiences—whether that means traveling, trying a new cuisine, or dating someone who’s younger.
- Maturity: While they may seek younger partners, cougars often bring emotional intelligence and life experience to the table.
The Fluidity of Age in the Cougar Concept
When it comes to age, the notion of a cougar can get a bit fuzzy. Some might argue that being a cougar kicks in at 40, while others might say it starts when you feel comfortable dating someone significantly younger. After all, there’s a vast difference between the perspective of a 30-year-old single woman looking for love and a 50-year-old who’s been married, divorced, and maybe even has kids in college. It’s all about context!
Consider this: If we think of age as a number, then perhaps we should also consider the emotional age of a person. If a 35-year-old woman has the life experience and dating history of someone in their 40s, does that make her a cougar? In some circles, it just might!
Real-Life Cougars: The Everyday Examples
Take my friend Jess, for instance. She’s 45, in a thriving career, and decided to start dating again. She said the men her age looked like they were “shopping in the clearance aisle of life”—not exactly appealing to her adventurous spirit. Instead, she found herself attracted to younger guys who sparkled with energy and enthusiasm. It’s not about being a “cougar” for the label, but rather about finding connections that resonate.
As we can see, the cougar archetype transcends strict definitions. It embodies a social narrative that encourages women to embrace their desires unapologetically. Whether that’s through the medium of dating or simply living life to the fullest, there’s a celebration of vibrancy that should not be overlooked.
| Traits of a Cougar | Benefits |
|---|---|
| Confidence | Ability to attract and retain attention |
| Adventurous Spirit | Encourages personal growth and new experiences |
| Emotional Intelligence | Builds deeper and more meaningful relationships |
| Financial Stability | Opens avenues for better lifestyle choices |
requires us to appreciate this nuanced blend of age, attitude, and personal journey. There’s no definitive entry point; instead, it’s a graceful dance of independence and connection that can lead to fulfillment at any stage of life.
Exploring Cougar Relationships
Whether you’ve heard the term “cougar” tossed around during a night out with friends or encountered it in a dating app bio, the idea can spark a fair bit of curiosity and conversation. Cougars, generally defined as older women who pursue relationships with younger men, embody a fascinating blend of empowerment, social commentary, and, let’s be honest, a little bit of cheekiness. The age range often cited is women who are at least 40 years old, but is that the definitive cutoff? Let’s peel back the layers.
Defining Age in Cougar Relationships
While a woman being 40 and stepping out with a man a decade younger is often the classic image of a “cougar,” the truth is much more nuanced. With today’s shifting social dynamics—thanks to the rise of online dating—it’s not unusual to find partnerships where the woman is in her 30s or even younger. So, what’s really the magic number?
If you ask around, you might find some interesting takes:
- Cultural norms: Some might insist that 40 is the line, stemming from traditional stereotypes. It’s the age that allows women a certain social freedom.
- Personal experience: Others will tell you that it’s less about the specific age and more about the connection. A 35-year-old could certainly embody that spirited cougar energy, especially in an era where men are dating older partners more often than before.
Ongoing research suggests that emotional maturity, confidence, and shared interests can weigh heavier than age alone. Think of it like finding the right pair of jeans—fit is everything!
Dynamics of Age-Gap Relationships
There’s something uniquely interesting about relationships that defy age expectations. It’s like throwing a pair of roller skates on a toddler and a grandma—both may need a little practice, but once they hit the rink, it’s all about balance and fun! In age-gap relationships, you can come across an array of dynamics:
- Mentorship vs. Companionship: Some relationships may have one partner taking on a mentoring role, while others are built on a foundation of friendship first.
- Life stages: While one partner might be knee-deep in career building, the other may already be enjoying retirement activities. Understanding and appreciating these differences can be key.
Personal anecdotes bring the numbers to life. For instance, my friend Pam is 45 and is dating a 28-year-old musician. They bond over their shared love for that vintage rock era while Pam helps him navigate the complexities of adulting. Talk about a sweet deal!
Challenges and Opportunities
Navigating the uncharted waters of cougar relationships certainly isn’t without its challenges. The judgment from peers can be like a swarm of bothersome mosquitoes—annoying but often easily swatted away. In fact, it could be as simple as discussing:
- Societal expectations: Outside opinions often make the relationship feel scrutinized. Knowing this ahead of time can help one prepare mentally for the conversation at gatherings.
- Future planning: It’s important to discuss long-term goals. While today’s young love can feel like a carefree summer, thinking about the future is crucial.
But opportunities often dance hand in hand with these challenges. The age-gap can lead to more open-mindedness in the relationship, creating an intriguing blend of experience and youthful enthusiasm. It’s like combining a rich, aged wine with a splash of fizzy soda—unexpected but delightful!
Engaging in these relationships can also foster personal growth, encouraging both partners to challenge their preconceptions of age and love. Remember, there’s no one-size-fits-all when it comes to romance—just be sure everyone is in the same chapter of the book!
The bottom line? Cougar relationships are as dynamic as relationships in general, infused with excitement and potential for growth. Whether you’re a cougar or contemplating dating one, understanding the layers of connection, societal implications, and emotional intelligence involved can paint a clearer picture of this intriguing social phenomenon.
Cultural Perspectives on Age Gaps
Navigating the waters of age gaps in relationships can feel like trying to find your way through a maze with a blindfold. One minute you’re buzzing with excitement about a new romance, and the next, you’re overwhelmed by the opinions of friends, family, and even strangers on the internet. But let’s peel back the layers and consider how different cultures perceive these age differences, especially when it comes to the term “cougar.” In many places, the stigma surrounding a significant age gap is as heavy as a winter coat in July, while other cultures might wear it as a badge of honor.
Global Views on Age Differences
When we look at global perspectives, the definition of a cougar (usually a woman dating someone significantly younger) can shift like sands in the desert. In countries like Japan, older women dating younger men could be seen as a way to assert independence and defy societal expectations. You might hear stories of couples whose age differences rival that of a great-grandparent and grandchild yet find deep mutual respect and love.
Here are some different cultural attitudes toward age gaps:
- The United States: Here, you’ll find a mix of admiration and skepticism. Reality TV often glamorizes cougars, but on the streets, opinions can vary widely.
- Scandinavia: Countries like Sweden and Denmark typically embrace relationships that defy traditional norms. Age is often seen as just a number, and personal happiness takes priority.
- Middle Eastern Cultures: Age gaps might be more rigidly defined, with older men often expected to marry younger women, leading to different connotations for older women dating younger men.
The Emotional Landscape
Different cultural narratives shape how those involved in age-gap relationships feel about societal judgment. For instance, a young man dating an older woman in a city like New York may puff out his chest with pride—like wearing a trophy. Conversely, someone in a small, conservative town might feel the heat of raised eyebrows hotter than a summer sidewalk.
Let’s not forget the impact of personal experiences! My friend Sarah, for example, dated a guy seven years younger. While she found plenty of mutual interests—like an obsession with brunch and a shared love of conspiracy theories—the judgment from her peers sometimes left her wondering if she was doing the right thing. So, it’s clear that cultural context can color the emotional responses to these relationships.
Navigating Conversations and Misconceptions
Open conversations can dismantle misunderstandings. Many people have preconceived notions about relationships with age gaps, such as the idea that a younger partner is inherently less mature or that the older partner is simply seeking validation. But these stereotypes often miss the nuances of individual relationships, much like judging a book by its cover.
To challenge misconceptions, some practical tips include:
- Communicate Openly: Foster an environment where both partners can express their feelings about societal opinions and dynamics.
- Seek Common Ground: Focus on shared values rather than age, such as life goals, interests, and lifestyle choices.
- Educate Others: When faced with skepticism, gently invite friends and family into conversations about your relationship dynamics.
Despite no one-size-fits-all answer, examining cultural perspectives reveals that love often finds a way around age and tradition—like navigating through a crowded marketplace during a festival. Remember to embrace the unique journey that each relationship brings, and who knows, you might even inspire others to break free from traditional molds!
The Psychology Behind Age Preferences
Understanding why individuals develop preferences for certain age groups can be like peeling an onion—layers upon layers of complex emotions, social constructs, and personal experiences. Age preferences can be influenced by various factors, including psychology, societal norms, and individual life experiences. A common belief is that being attracted to younger partners is often associated with a desire for vitality, energy, and the thrill of youth, while preferences for older partners may be linked to maturity, stability, and life experience. Yet, it’s not always clear cut, is it?
The Role of Identity and Self-Perception
Our age preferences frequently mirror our self-perception and identity. For instance, when someone thinks of themselves as youthful, they might lean towards dating younger partners to reflect that image. It’s like wearing your favorite vintage band tee, reminiscing about the good old days while still wanting to experience the pulse of contemporary trends. In this context, preferences aren’t just about the partner’s age but also about the persona one wishes to project.
Furthermore, these preferences can serve as a means of self-validation—an older individual dating a younger partner may feel rejuvenated, while a younger person with an older partner may gain a sense of security. Consider the “sugar daddy” phenomenon—in that light, age dynamics can often signify more than just attraction; they also reflect social status and financial security.
Cultural perceptions of aging impact who we find attractive. In many societies, youth is idolized while wisdom often comes with age, creating a paradox. This leads to preferences that might hinge on societal expectations rather than personal inclinations. It’s like a beautiful, complicated dance that we all navigate—somewhat like the Cha-Cha Slide, but with more emotional stakes involved. The idea of a “cougar”, traditionally viewed through a lens of judgment, is challenged as social attitudes shift and evolving definitions of relationships emerge.
The philosophy of “opposites attract” plays a huge role too. Dating someone younger can be a thrilling escape from the responsibilities of adulthood, while dating someone older might provide a safe harbor to weather life’s storms. Add in the influences of social media platforms where younger people flaunt confidence and style, and it’s clear why these preferences continue to evolve.
Interestingly, research in psychology suggests that age preferences can vary significantly based on life stages. A study might show that individuals in their 30s tend to date within a narrower age range, while those in their 50s are more flexible. Age preferences can also shift based on experiences, emotional needs, and even recent trends in dating.
So what can you take away from this? Understanding one’s age preferences can offer valuable insights into deeper emotional desires. Think of it as maintaining a well-balanced diet—too much of any age group might lead to emotional indigestion. Aim for a mix that includes respect, maturity, and shared values, regardless of the actual years involved. Keep the conversation flowing, explore mutual interests, and be open to the idea that love doesn’t always adhere to the societal rules constructed around age. The heart often knows what the mind wants to overthink!
Statistics on Age and Dating Choices
There’s a fascinating dynamic at play when it comes to age and dating choices, particularly around the concept of the “cougar.” This term, which typically refers to an older woman who seeks romantic relationships with younger men, is steeped in cultural nuances and societal expectations. But what does the data say about the age gaps and preferences that define this phenomenon? Grab your favorite beverage as we explore some intriguing statistics—you might find yourself nodding in agreement or shaking your head in disbelief.
The Age Gap: A Statistical Snapshot
When looking at age differentials in dating, the numbers tell a compelling story. According to various surveys, men frequently express interest in dating women who are about 5 to 7 years younger than themselves, while women often look for men who are around 2 to 5 years younger or even older. This might not sound like a huge difference, but it’s part of a broader trend that reflects changing attitudes toward romance and companionship in our modern world.
Let’s break it down a bit further. A study found that approximately 50% of older women (ages 35–55) reported dating younger men. This suggests that the “cougar” concept is not just a catchy phrase, but also a manifestation of changing gender roles and a desire for connection that transcends age.
Defining the Cougar: Surveys and Trends
Interestingly, the perception of what age qualifies someone as a cougar varies widely. Many people believe that women in their mid-30s to 50s fit this category, but a deep dive into public opinion reveals a split view. Some argue that being a cougar is all about attitude rather than age—that vibrant, confident women can embody the cougar spirit at any age. Here’s a handy comparison of perceptions:
| Age Category | Percentage of Respondents |
|---|---|
| Under 30 | 10% |
| 30-39 | 35% |
| 40-49 | 45% |
| 50+ | 10% |
This table illustrates the variety of perspectives on when women enter the “cougar” arena. It’s worth pondering: does society’s willingness to embrace age differences in relationships signal a broader acceptance of maturity and independence in love?
Anecdotal Evidence and Personal Insights
Now, let’s get personal. Consider a friend of mine, Lisa, who embraced her “cougar” phase in her early 40s. She found dating young guys to be both exhilarating and liberating. Over a casual dinner, she laughed, “Who knew I’d be swiping right on guys born during my high school years?” Her experience reinforced the idea that romantic connections are not just about shared experiences; they’re about attraction, chemistry, and mutual respect, regardless of age.
But not everyone shares such a seamless experience. Some may find the age difference less-than-ideal, often grappling with societal judgment or feeling the strain of differing life stages. Mental health professionals suggest open discussions and deep understanding as crucial tools in navigating these waters.
Being a cougar, it seems, is as much about empowerment and exploration as it is about age. There is no doubt that ongoing research continues to shed light on these topics, underlining that the heart doesn’t always pay attention to societal norms—or the calendar, for that matter.
Navigating Social Stigmas Surrounding Cougars
Navigating the world of cougars—women who are romantically involved with significantly younger partners—often feels a bit like stepping into a minefield of social perceptions and stereotypes. For many, the term “cougar” conjures up images of glamorous, confident women looking to relive their youth through steamy escapades with someone much younger. However, what often goes unspoken are the complexities and often unwarranted social stigmas that accompany this lifestyle choice. Let’s dive into the nuances of this intriguing subject.
Understanding the Stigma
Many people harbor preconceived notions about cougars, often linking them to myths of being desperate or over-sexualized. It’s crucial to remember that while some may fit these stereotypes, they don’t represent the entire group. Being labeled a cougar can feel akin to wearing a neon sign that says, “Look at me!”—not always in a flattering manner. Here are some stigmas people might face:
- Judgment from Peers: Friends and family may raise eyebrows, questioning motivations for dating younger partners.
- Reduced Respect: Cougars might be seen as less serious or more frivolous, impacting how they’re perceived in social circles.
- Shame and Guilt: Internal conflict can arise when societal norms clash with personal desires, leading to feelings of inadequacy or shame.
The amusing irony here is that while one might envision a dimly lit bar scene with the quintessential cougar “on the prowl,” many are simply navigating their desires and happiness—just like everyone else. Relationships built on mutual attraction, respect, and shared interests can thrive, despite whatever labels society opts to assign.
Overcoming Prejudice
To effectively navigate these challenges, embracing a positive mindset can work wonders. Just like you’d shake off the haters at a local festival dancing like nobody’s watching (we’ve all been there), it’s key to focus on the healthy aspects of your relationship. Here are a few practical tips:
- Communicate Openly: Discuss any perceived stigmas with your partner. Understanding their perspective will solidify your bond.
- Build a Support Network: Surround yourself with friends who respect your choices and offer encouragement instead of judgment.
- Educate Others: When faced with assumptions from outsiders, take the opportunity to share your experiences. You might just change a few minds along the way!
As the saying goes, “What you think of me is none of my business.” So why not embrace what makes you happy? While stereotypes can sting, they often stem from misunderstanding or ignorance.
Rethinking the Narrative
Research shows that, contrary to popular belief, many women who date younger men are experiencing fulfilling relationships based on mutual interests and emotional compatibility. Cougars are not one-dimensional characters created for the sake of gossip; they are real women—complex, multifaceted, and deserving of happiness. By critiquing societal biases and rethinking what it means to be a cougar, we can slowly start to reshape the narrative to be one of empowerment instead of judgment.
The interesting part? Dating older women has some unexpected perks for younger men, such as emotional maturity and financial stability (they’re likely to know how to split the check!). In this evolving world, these relationships may just help shatter the glass ceilings of traditional dating norms. Ultimately, every relationship has its own unique dynamics, and embracing that variety can lead to a more open-minded perspective.
So, while navigating these waters can feel daunting, empowering conversations and awareness will always be your best compass for dispelling myths. Just remember: Love knows no age—and that’s a truth worth celebrating!
Frequently asked questions
What is the typical age range for someone to be considered a ‘cougar’?
The term “cougar” typically refers to an older woman who seeks romantic relationships with significantly younger men. While there is no official age cut-off, the widely accepted range for a cougar is generally considered to be women aged 40 and above. This concept gets its name from the predatory nature of the animal itself, indicating a woman who is confident and assertive in her dating preferences.
Research and societal perceptions have also shaped the definition. A survey conducted by AARP indicated that nearly 50% of women in their 40s and 50s reported being open to dating younger men. Moreover, the age gap can vary; some may view women dating men over 10 years younger as cougars, while others might consider this dynamic more fluid based on personal experiences and social norms. Thus, while the age bracket is often cited as 40+, the definition can be subjective and influenced by various factors including culture and individual perspectives.
Why do some women choose to date younger men?
Many women opt to date younger men for reasons that extend beyond mere attraction. A significant factor is the desire for a refreshing perspective. Younger partners can bring vigor, new interests, and a different outlook on life that can reinvigorate a woman’s social and romantic experience. This dynamic can create a stimulating relationship where both partners continuously learn from each other.
Additionally, studies indicate that older women may find younger men to be less encumbered by traditional expectations. According to a Pew Research Center report, women in a cougar role often cite emotional maturity and an openness to explore unconventional relationship dynamics as key benefits. These relationships often defy traditional norms, allowing women to embrace their independence and sexual agency without the societal stigma they might face when dating within an age-appropriate norm.
Are there any societal perceptions or stigmas attached to being a cougar?
The term “cougar” has evolved over time and can carry varying connotations. While it is often used in a playful context, there still exists a notable stigma. Some critics argue that the label objectifies women and implies they are desperate or lacking. This perception can create internal conflict for women who wish to explore relationships with younger men but fear being judged or misunderstood.
Conversely, there is a growing movement towards empowerment and reclaiming the term. Many women are embracing their sexuality and defying age-related stereotypes. For instance, media representations, such as those seen in popular TV shows or movies, often highlight successful, confident older women in relationships with younger men, reflecting a shift in societal attitudes toward such pairings. Positive discussions and portrayals help normalize these dynamics, encouraging individuals to focus on personal fulfillment rather than conforming to traditional dating scripts.
What are the potential advantages of dating younger men?
Dating younger men can offer a variety of distinct advantages. Firstly, many younger partners are often seen as more energetic and adventurous. This vibrancy can lead to exciting new experiences, travel, or simply a different approach to life that might have been lost in long-term or traditional relationships. The enthusiasm of youth can help stimulate greater romance and passion, reinvigorating an older woman’s life.
Additionally, younger men can also bring flexibility in gender roles and expectations. They may be less likely to adhere to traditional views on masculinity, promoting a more equal partnership. Studies indicate that many younger men appreciate older women’s experience and maturity, leading to balanced relationships where both partners contribute uniquely to each other’s lives. These dynamics often foster deep communication and mutual understanding, essential components of any healthy relationship.
How do relationships between cougars and younger men typically differ from traditional relationships?
Relationships between cougars and younger men often break conventional molds, resulting in distinct dynamics. One notable difference is the power balance in these relationships. Depending on individual personalities, older women might assume a more dominant role in the partnership, which can lead to more direct communication and openness about desires and expectations. This shift can empower older women to articulate their needs more confidently, often leading to stronger emotional connections.
Moreover, the cultural context plays a significant role. As younger men may not have the same societal pressures, they might approach dating with a more relaxed attitude, focusing less on social norms and more on mutual enjoyment and respect. This freedom allows both partners to engage in a relationship that genuinely reflects their desires rather than adhering to traditional scripts. This authenticity can lead to enriched intimacy and genuine companionship, ultimately enhancing the relationship’s longevity.
Are there health benefits associated with dating younger partners?
Dating younger partners can bring about various health benefits that positively impact physical and mental well-being. Engaging in a vibrant relationship often leads to increased social interaction, which has been linked to lower levels of loneliness and depression. Research published by the National Institute on Aging emphasizes that maintaining social connections can significantly enhance mental health, indicating that the energy and enthusiasm of younger partners may contribute to a more active social calendar.
In terms of physical health, being in a relationship typically encourages individuals to maintain an active lifestyle. For example, couples often engage in activities together—such as exercising, hiking, or even just socializing more frequently—which can promote a healthier lifestyle overall. Moreover, the excitement and novelty often associated with dating can release endorphins and other feel-good hormones, contributing to emotional well-being and reducing stress levels. This interconnectedness of emotional and physical health illustrates the multifaceted benefits of exploring relationships without age constraints.
In Retrospect
As we wrap up our exploration of “What Age Makes a Cougar? Defining the Line,” it’s clear that the term “cougar” is more nuanced than the playful label suggests. Age is just one part of the equation, and while the conventional wisdom might peg cougars as women over 40 who date younger men, the reality is far more complex and fascinating.
Statistics show that dating dynamics are evolving, with cultural shifts allowing for more diverse interpretations of relationships. So whether you’re embracing the cougar lifestyle or just curious about this intriguing phenomenon, remember that definitions can vary widely based on personal perspectives and societal norms.
it’s about connection and attraction—no matter the age disparity. So, the next time you find yourself pondering this newly fortified terminology over your favorite cocktail, you’ll not only be armed with engaging insights but also ready to contribute to the lively conversations that surround modern relationships. Dive in, laugh a little, and remember: it’s not just a title; it’s a whole culture, entertaining in its own right!
